Was God defeated by the Moabite god

Was God defeated by the Moabite god?

In a recent video by Dan McClellen, released on the 7th July 20205, he makes the claim that the God of Israel, YHVH,  “took an L” a loss, against the Moabite god Chemosh. You can watch the video here 

While I will be addressing this video and the claims made in it, it is important to note that this is not in any way a new claim. This passage has been the subject of great discussion and postulation, long before Dans video.

Dan claims that the prophecy given by Elisha to Jehoram the King of Israel, in 2 Kings 3:18-19 failed and that God was deaftered by the Moabite god Chemosh, after Mesha, the King of Moab, sacrificed his oldest son to this god in desperation to save Moab from defeat to the joint forces of the Northern and Southern Kingdoms of Israel and Edom and that this resulted in Chemosh defeating YHVH and Israel had to leave without completing their mission and thus the prophecy given by Elisha failed. Dan asserts that because they were fighting in the land of Moab, YHVH lost “home court advantage” being the God of the land of Israel and not Moab.

Dan, however, further claims that his understanding of the text is the ONLY way in which the text can be understood and that any other explanation requires making up evidence in order to have it fit a predetermined dogma.

This is the fallacy of ipse dixit, he himself said it. or proof by assertion . Dan asserts this as if it is true, but hasn’t actually proven that this is true. Asserting that your understanding is the only way to understand something, does not prove that it is.

Now, while this may be the only way that Dan can see that explains the passage, or rather, this is the understanding that Dan personally accepts as the only way to understand the passage, it does not mean that it is the only understanding that works.  I do not agree with that assertion. While I persoanlly do hold to the view that the god of Moab does not actually exist and thus completely impossible that he would be able to defeat YHVH, who I believe to be the only God that actually exists in reality, I do believe that we can explain this passage in both a presuppositional way and in a critical and logial way and still come to the conclusion that the prophecy did not fail.

So let’s see if we can explain this passage without having to make up evidence.

In order to understand this passage it is vital that we understand the context and the passage in light of the  Bible itself. In fairness, Dan does give us some context, but it is my opinion that Dan does not give enough context in order to allow his audience to come to any other conclusion than what he asserts is the only conclusion that anyone can come to.

Dan correctly outlines the fact that Moab at the time was a vassal nation paying tribute to the Northern Kingdom of Israel in the form of lambs and rams for wool.

2 Kings 3:4 And Mesha king of Moab was a sheepmaster, and rendered unto the king of Israel an hundred thousand lambs, and an hundred thousand rams, with the wool.

However, after the death of Ahab the King of Israel and his son Jehoram had taken the reign, Mesha the King of Moab rebelled against Israel.

2 Kings 3:5 But it came to pass, when Ahab was dead, that the king of Moab rebelled against the king of Israel.

This obviously annoyed Jehoram who decided that he would enlist the help of Jehoshaphat the King of Judah, the Southern Kingdom and also the King of Edom to go to war against Moab.

Here, it is very important to note, and take into consideration for the rest of the passage, which Dan fails to do,  is that Jehoram was not a righteous King, and neither had his father Ahab been. In fact, the biblical text tells us that they were evil. Jehoram had not engaged in some of the evil ways of his father who had images of Baal, but was following the sins of Jeroboam.

2 Kings 3:2 And he wrought evil in the sight of the LORD; but not like his father, and like his mother: for he put away the image of Baal that his father had made. 3 Nevertheless he cleaved unto the sins of Jeroboam the son of Nebat, which made Israel to sin; he departed not therefrom.

The sins of Jeroboam our outlined in 1 Kings 12. where we see that he had set up 2 golden calves, one in Bethel and one in Dan of which the people were going to worship before them, causing the people to sin,  and allowing anyone to be a priest in the nation. This went against what God had instructed regarding priests who could only be from the tribe of Judah.

1 Kings 12:28 Whereupon the king took counsel, and made two calves of gold, and said unto them, It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem: behold thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt. 29And he set the one in Bethel, and the other put he in Dan. 30And this thing became a sin: for the people went to worship before the one, even unto Dan.31And he made an house of high places, and made priests of the lowest of the people, which were not of the sons of Levi. 32And Jeroboam ordained a feast in the eighth month, on the fifteenth day of the month, like unto the feast that is in Judah, and he offered upon the altar. So did he in Bethel, sacrificing unto the calves that he had made: and he placed in Bethel the priests of the high places which he had made. 33So he offered upon the altar which he had made in Bethel the fifteenth day of the eighth month, even in the month which he had devised of his own heart; and ordained a feast unto the children of Israel: and he offered upon the altar, and burnt incense.

1 Kings 13:33 After this thing Jeroboam returned not from his evil way, but made again of the lowest of the people priests of the high places: whosoever would, he consecrated him, and he became one of the priests of the high places.

King Jehoram was not a King following YHVH and nor were the people of the Northern Kingdom of Israel.

So, the King of Israel wanted to go and war against Moab in order to make them continue paying tribute and bring them back into line.

It is here we must now also note that God had explicitly told Israel not to make war with Moab and that none of their land was to be given to Israel.

Deuteronomy 2:9 And the LORD said unto me, Distress not the Moabites, neither contend with them in battle: for I will not give thee of their land for a possession; because I have given Ar unto the children of Lot for a possession.

The land on which the Moabites lived was given by God to Ar.

So Jehoram, tries to enlist the help of the Southern Kingdom of Israel for this war. It must be noted that Jehoram does not seek the help of YHVH, he is going to do this on his own, along with the Southern Kingdom if he can get their help.

Interestingly, King Jehoshaphat, who was a righteous King,  agrees to go to battle with Jehoram.

2 Kings 3:And he went and sent to Jehoshaphat the king of Judah, saying, The king of Moab hath rebelled against me: wilt thou go with me against Moab to battle? And he said, I will go up: I am as thou art, my people as thy people, and my horses as thy horses. 8And he said, Which way shall we go up? And he answered, The way through the wilderness of Edom.

The Northern and Southern Kingdoms head off to Moab through Edom, who they will also enlist to fight against Moab.

However, while in the wilderness of Edom, they could find no water for them or their animals that followed.

2 Kings 3:9 So the king of Israel went, and the king of Judah, and the king of Edom: and they fetched a compass of seven days’ journey: and there was no water for the host, and for the cattle that followed them.

Jehoram then states that YHVH has brought the 3 Kings into the wilderness to deliver them to Moab. This shows Jehorams understanding of YHVH. He had absolutely no trust in him at all. It was Jehorams own idea to go and war against Moab and it was him that had wanted to go through Edom.

Jehoram was now blaming the intentions of YHVH for the consequences of his own choices.

2 Kings 3:10 And the king of Israel said, Alas! that the LORD hath called these three kings together, to deliver them into the hand of Moab!

Jehoshaphat then enquires if there is a prophet of God amongst them, to which he is told about the prophet Elisha.

2 Kings 3:11 But Jehoshaphat said, Is there not here a prophet of the LORD, that we may inquire of the LORD by him? And one of the king of Israel’s servants answered and said, Here is Elisha the son of Shaphat, which poured water on the hands of Elijah.

So the King of Israel, Jeroboam, enquires of Elisha. It is important that we remember that Elisha is the prophet that had taken over from Elijah in the preceding chapter. He had been sent to Bethel by God because of the evil that was being done there. Here he was now on the way with these 3 Kings to war against Moab.

2 Kings 3:12 And Jehoshaphat said, The word of the LORD is with him. So the king of Israel and Jehoshaphat and the king of Edom went down to him.

Elisha asks what he has to do with this King of Israel and telling him to go to his own prophets as Elisha was a prophet of YHVH.  Elisha shows his displeasure of this King who was, in reality only seeking him because his plan was, well,  not going to plan. Jehoram as we know did not call upon YHVH, he had his own prophets in the Northern Kingdom, Elisha simply tells him to go to them.
Jehoram tells Elisha that YHVH has brought the kings to be given unto Moab. Again showing his own understanding of this God he didn’t trust in.

2 Kings 3:13 And Elisha said unto the king of Israel, What have I to do with thee? get thee to the prophets of thy father, and to the prophets of thy mother. And the king of Israel said unto him, Nay: for the LORD hath called these three kings together, to deliver them into the hand of Moab.

Elisha tells Jehoram that had it not been for Jehoshaphat being there also, that he would not even be stood before him or even acknowledge him.

2 Kings 3:14 and Elisha said, As the LORD of hosts liveth, before whom I stand, surely, were it not that I regard the presence of Jehoshaphat the king of Judah, I would not look toward thee, nor see thee.

However, Elisha calls for a minstrel and when he started to play the hand of YHVH came upon him.

2 Kings 3:15 But now bring me a minstrel. And it came to pass, when the minstrel played, that the hand of the LORD came upon him.

Then Elisha gave specific instructions to Jehoram, stating “thus saith the LORD”, and tells him that YHVH will deliver the Moabites to them. This is the prophecy that Dan claims fails.

2 Kings 3: 16 And he said, Thus saith the LORD, Make this valley full of ditches.17 For thus saith the LORD, Ye shall not see wind, neither shall ye see rain; yet that valley shall be filled with water, that ye may drink, both ye, and your cattle, and your beasts. 18 And this is but a light thing in the sight of the LORD: he will deliver the Moabites also into your hand. 19 And ye shall smite every fenced city, and every choice city, and shall fell every good tree, and stop all wells of water, and mar every good piece of land with stones.

Notice that after Jehoram is told that the Moabites will be delivered into his hand, there is further prophecy given about events that will also happen. They would also smite every fenced city and choice city and cut down every good tree, stop wells of water and mar the good land with stones.

So, this is the prophecy that Dan says not only fails, but it is not up for serious debate that this prophecy fails.

But does this prophecy really fail? Let’s look at what the prophecy states, and then what happened.

2 Kings 3:17 For thus saith the LORD, Ye shall not see wind, neither shall ye see rain; yet that valley shall be filled with water, that ye may drink, both ye, and your cattle, and your beasts.

This part of the prophecy is fulfilled in verse 20

2 Kings 3:20 And it came to pass in the morning, when the meat offering was offered, that, behold, there came water by the way of Edom, and the country was filled with water.

2 Kings 3:18 And this is but a light thing in the sight of the LORD: he will deliver the Moabites also into your hand. 

This is fulfilled in verse 24

2 Kings 3:24 And when they came to the camp of Israel, the Israelites rose up and smote the Moabites, so that they fled before them: but they went forward smiting the Moabites, even in their country.

They will Smite every fenced and choice city, cut down the good trees and spoil the good land with stones. 

2 Kings 3:19 And ye shall smite every fenced city, and every choice city, and shall fell every good tree, and stop all wells of water, and mar every good piece of land with stones.

This is fulfilled in verse 25 

2 Kings 3:25 And they beat down the cities, and on every good piece of land cast every man his stone, and filled it; and they stopped all the wells of water, and felled all the good trees: only in Kirharaseth left they the stones thereof; howbeit the slingers went about it, and smote it.

This doesn’t look like a failed prophecy to me. In fact, the whole prophecy is fulfilled exactly as it was stated it would be.

Dan asserts that the prophecy fails because the Moabites are not brought back into subjugation to the Northern Kingdom of Israel. He claims that had the prophecy been a success, then Moab would have returned to being a vassal nation subject to the Kingdom of Israel. The collaboration retreat and do not complete the mission.  So I have to ask…..where is that part in the prophecy? Where do we see Elisha declaring that YHVH had said you will return Moab back under your power? Nowhere, thats where..

The prophecy does not in any way state that Moab would return to vassalage. This is an assumption based on the prophecy stating Moab would be given into their hands. It is assumed that Moab being given into their hands would result in the return to vassalage to Israel, but this is an assumption that the text simply does not state. Dan has to include that the prophecy includes the return of Moab back under the control of Israel in order to assert that the prophecy was a failure. An ultimate failure of the mission does not necessitate the failure of the prophecy because the prophecy does not include the full success of the mission. 

The prophecy that was given was fully fulfilled. This is where taking the full context of the passage is of vital importance. We have to remember that Jeroboam was not a righteous King, rather, he was an evil king. Elisha had clearly stated that if it wasn’t for the presence of Jehoshaphat he wouldn’t even have entertained him. The prophecy and protection given by YHVH in the war with Moab where Moab would be given into their hands was because of Jehoshaphat, not Jeroboam. 

Moab most certainly was defeated, given into the hands of the coalition. We even see that the King of Moab, seeing that the battle had been lost,  gathered some men to try to get to the King of Edom, but this attempt failed.

2 Kings 3:26 And when the king of Moab saw that the battle was too sore for him, he took with him seven hundred men that drew swords, to break through even unto the king of Edom: but they could not.

The prophecy given by Elisha had been fulfilled. This was all that Elisha had stated. It was not prophecied that Moab would be returned to vassalage to the evil King of Israel. Why would YHVH return Moab to Israel? Israel were worshipping other gods and Jeroboam was not following YHVH. It is actually completely nonsensicle to even assume that the success of the prophecy would rely on this clause and clearly does not take into account the full context and details given within the text. 

After this we then see that Mesha sacrificed his own son on the wall which is when a great indignation came against Israel and they departed from him and returned into their own land.

2 Kings 3:26Then he took his eldest son that should have reigned in his stead, and offered him for a burnt offering upon the wall. And there was great indignation against Israel: and they departed from him, and returned to their own land.

As already stated, Dan claims that because of what is stated in this verse the prophecy given by Elisha had failed. But as we have seen, the prophecy was already complete at this point. This is  now beyond the given prophecy.

Dan claims that the sacrifice by Mesha of his son, to his god, Chemosh, worked, and that Chemosh then drove off the invaders back to their own land.

Of course, this actually would necessitate the actual existence of Chemosh and that he was as powerful in his own land as YHVH was in his own land, in order to “defeat” YHVH.

The indignation here it is claimed by Dan means divine indignation, being the Hebrew קֶצֶף־ qe-ṣep̄- which is almost always used for divine wrath, and that it makes no sense that this wrath would have come from YHVH against Israel, so it must refer to the wrath of Chemosh.

So let’s now investigate this claim further.

It only does not make sense that this indignation would have come from YHVH if you already assume that prophecy included putting Moab back under vassalage. If that was the prophecy, then yes, it could be asserted that the wrath against Israel would make little sense. When you take into account that God had nothing to do with Israel going to war against Moab, that he was not seeking to put Moab under subjugation to Israel, that the evil Israelite king chose to go against Moab for his own benefit and was not relying on YHVH for protection and that the protection of YHVH and deliverance of Moab was only for the benefit of Jehoshaphat. Once Moab was defeated, and the prophecy fulfilled, there was no requirment for any more from YHVH. The sacrifice of the Moabite kings son, something that was an abomination to YHVH, brought indignation against Israel because it was the actions of Jeroboam that had led to this terrible result. Notice that the indignation was only on Israel. Not on Judah or Edom. Now that the prophecy was fulfilled Gods wrath, which usually is brought about because of the sins of his people, was brought on Israel for their sins which had ultimately led to the almost destruction of Moab and the death of the son of the King in an attempt to call upon his god for protection. All being the result of Israel wanting Moab to continue paying a tribute. The text also does not state that Moab fought back and made the 3 nations retreat or that they drove them out.  

Once all of that is taken into consideration, then it makes perfect sense that Gods wrath would be taken out on Israel. 

Now, there is a confusing end to the passage, where it states, “and they departed from him, and returned to their own land.”

Does this mean that the 3 Kings departed from the King of Moab and left into their own lands? Possibly, howevere, I think this goes back to the nearest antecedent, Israel. After the King of Moab offers his son as a sacrifice, the indignation of YHVH comes upon Israel and then they, the King of Judah and the King of Edom, depart from him, the king of Israel. Edom and Judah go back to their lands.

The claims regarding failed prophecy and the requirement for the text to include the defeat of YHVH to the Moabite god Chemosh do not stand the test of analysis.

If you liked this study please subscribe here

You can buy my books on Amazon there is a link here 

Join our Patreon membershiphere