Is the KJV free from error KJV debate analysis, Will Kinney and James Snapp JR
Link to the debate here The Great King James Only Debate | Will Kinney vs. James Snapp Jr. – Is the KJB Free From All Error? (youtube.com)
Kush or Ethiopia?
In the recent debate between James Snapp Jr and Will Kinney titled “is the KJB Free from all error?” one of the debate topics was Genesis 2:13 and whether the verse should read Ethiopia as it does in the KJB or Kush (or maybe Kassites (land of the))
James Snapp Jr asserts that in the KJB the word Ethiopia is a translational error. It should not read Ethiopia but rather Kush. He asserts that normally Cush refers to Ethiopia but in this case it is not referring to Cush as in Ethiopia but rather Kush as in the land of the Kassites (13th Century BC)
James then shows a map that he claims demonstrates where the land of the Kassites was and showing the River Gihon, which James states is a verifiable river, that existed at the time of Moses. James further asserts that Ethiopia in Africa is hundreds of miles to the west of where the river Gihon flowed, near Iraq and thus Ethiopia is an incorrect translation.
Of course, James is correct that the river Gihon on the map that he displayed cannot be said to flow through the land that we know today as Ethiopia which is in Africa. This is obvious, they are hundreds of miles apart.
1) It assumes that the KJV translators are equating the land of Ethiopia named after Cush the Grandson of Noah, with the land of Cush in Genesis 2:13. We shall see in a moment that this is simply false.
2) James states that Kush in Genesis 2:13 is referring to the land of the Kassites. However, this is simply in error. The Kassites were not named after anyone called Kush and neither is the land of the Kassites the land of Kush.More
importantly, the Kassites did not exist back at the time of Genesis 2:13.
James has anachronistically read the land of the Kassites that existed around the time of Moses back into the land that Moses wrote about that existed 2500 years prior
While Cush would not necessarily be an incorrect reading, neither is Ethiopia as they both refer to the same land, one reading is simply a transliteration while the other is a translation.
How should Jeremiah 51:1 read?
Jeremiah 51:1 Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will raise up against Babylon, and against them that dwell in the midst of them that rise up against me, a destroying wind; KJV
Jeremiah 51:1 The LORD says, “I will cause a destructive wind to blow against Babylon and the people who inhabit Babylonia. NET Bible
Jeremiah 51:1 Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I stir up against Babylon, and against the Chaldeans dwelling therein, a deadly burning wind. Brentons Septuagint
In the debate between James Snapp Jr and Will Kinney, James asserts that the reading as found in the KJV is incorrect.
He claims that the KJV translators failed to recognise Jeremiah’s use of atbash cipher in the verse and so rather than deciphering the code, they translated the Hebrew words instead, which James asserts is incorrect.
When we look at the Hebrew it reads לֵ֣ב קָמָ֑י lêḇ qā-māy;
It is almost certain that Jeremiah has indeed used Atbash cipher to refer to the Chaldeans within his writing. However, the Hebrew words also have a literal meaning. Leb meaning the inner (part), heart or the mind of a person and qā-māy meaning to arise to stand up.
The words are preceded by the Hebrew יֹשְׁבֵ֖י yō-šə-ḇê , to dwell in.Thus, the translation of these Hebrew words as “that dwell in the midst of them that rise up against me” is a perfectly acceptable direct translation of the Hebrew that Jeremiah has used.
So, the Hebrew words have, both a literal meaning and an atbash cipher code within them.
While Jeremiah has included the atbash cipher within the verse, this does not actually necessitate that we must translate the atbash cipher within the words and render the Hebrew as Chaldeans. In fact, even most modern translations do not actually do this. Rather they neither translate the Hebrew or decipher the code, but instead simply render the Hebrew as it is, Lab-Kamai
Jeremiah 51:1 This is what the LORD says: “See, I will stir up the spirit of a destroyer against Babylon and the people of Leb Kamai. NIV
This, though, is clearly an incorrect rendering and should not be rendered as such. It neither gives us the literal meaning nor the Atbash cipher code that is within. It is, for English speakers, a nonsensical reading, as Lab-Kamai means nothing in English. There is no place Lab-Kamai nor a people of Lab-Kamai.
But why should the translation be as per the KJV rather than Chaldeans?
As we have seen in the Hebrew, the words give the reader (of the Hebrew), both the literal meaning as rendered in the KJV and the atbash cipher code reference, as per the argument of James Snapp Jr.
The Hebrew gives us both the WHO (the referent) and the WHY (the reason) within the same words. The who being the Chaldeans, the why because they dwell in the midst and rise up against (me).
Jeremiah has included both the why and the who in his writing.
This is not possible to translate within the English, unless we included both renderings within the same verse.
When we read the verse in the English of the KJV we can tell who is in reference as they are stated in the verse, those that dwell in the midst of Babylon, and also the why, because they have rise up against (me).
If we were to simply translate this as the Chaldeans in the English then we lose the literal meaning of the WHY. However, translating the literal meaning allows the reader to know the WHY, while also knowing the WHO seeing they have already been referenced within the context, Babylon. The people the at dwell in the midst of Babylon (the Chaldeans) because they arise against (me).
So, while James is correct to assert that there is a “hidden” reference to the people of Chaldean within the Hebrew of Jeremiah 51:1, translating this as Chaldeans would lose the why of the verse. The KJV rendering allows us to know the who, those dwelling in Babylon, the Chaldeans but also allows us to know the reason.
Jaw or Spring in Judges 15:19?
James Asserts that the reading of Jaw in the KJV is incorrect. He claims that this should be rendered Lehi, as in the place of Lehi not the Jaw as the KJV would render this.
Judges 15:19 But God clave an hollow place that was in the jaw, and there came water thereout; and when he had drunk, his spirit came again, and he revived: wherefore he called the name thereof Enhakkore, which is in Lehi unto this day. KJV
Judges 15:19 Then God opened up the hollow place in Lehi, and water came out of it. When Samson drank, his strength returned and he revived. So the spring was called En Hakkore, and it is still there in Lehi. NIV
As we can clearly see the KJV reads Jaw while other versions, such as the NIV read Lehi
But were the KJV translators wrong here as James would assert.
In order to answer this we need to look both at the context and the Hebrew of the verse.
Firstly, we clearly see that a small miracle had already been done with the Jaw(bone) that Samson had used to kill a thousand Philistines with. Samson had come to LEHI, the place and fought with the Philistines, using the Jawbone of an ass that he had found.
Judges 15:14 And when he came unto Lehi, the Philistines shouted against him: and the Spirit of the LORD came mightily upon him, and the cords that were upon his arms became as flax that was burnt with fire, and his bands loosed from off his hands. 15 And he found a new jawbone of an ass, and put forth his hand, and took it, and slew a thousand men therewith.
Notice that the KJV reads “came to Lehi”. This is a place. The KJV translators would clearly have known this was the place Lehi as they used Lehi here.
Also, we must notice that other translations such as the NIV refer to the place Lehi, they also have Jaw(bone) in the verse.
Judges 15:14 As he approached Lehi, the Philistines came toward him shouting. The Spirit of the Lord came powerfully upon him. The ropes on his arms became like charred flax, and the bindings dropped from his hands. 15 Finding a fresh jawbone of a donkey, he grabbed it and struck down a thousand men.
Samson, then throws away the Jawbone and became thirsty. So Samson cried unto the LORD and the LORD opened up a hollowed place (in Jaw/Lehi).
And this is where the division is found.
The KJV has the water come from the Jaw that Samson has cast away. While the NIV has the water come from a place in Lehi.
The confusion comes because it is asserted that Jaw and Lehi are the same Hebrew word. James asserts that the KJV has incorrectly rendered it Jaw instead of the place, Lehi.
And this is where we just need to look more carefully. We know that the Jawbone has already formed part of the context and we know that this happened in the place Lehi. What we must notice is that in Judges 15:19 in the KJV we find both the word Jaw and the word Lehi.
Judges 15:19 But God clave an hollow place that was in the jaw, and there came water thereout; and when he had drunk, his spirit came again, and he revived: wherefore he called the name thereof Enhakkore, which is in Lehi unto this day.
So we cannot argue that the KJV translators were not aware of the two renderings. But why then did they translate this as Jaw not Lehi. Would it not be obvious that this was the place not the Jaw and common sense say that the water came from the ground in Lehi rather than the Jawbone as James asserted?
Maybe, but lets not forget this is God we are talking about. God often did things “the hard way” when what would seem easier options were available. God brought water from a rock in Horeb for the Israelites to drink from. It would have been far “easier” and more common sense for God to have brought water from a spring, but that is not what God chose to do.
Now, what we do see is that the place was called Enhakkore because of what God did. Enhakkore means place of a miraculous spring. It does not say that the place was called Lehi. Lehi was already a place. Lehi has already been mentioned as the place. It is Enhakkore that is named because of what happened. Enhakkore is a place named within Lehi.
Notice that the verse says that “which is in Lehi unto this day.”
James asserts that the spring was in Lehi until that day. The verse does not say nor does it demand that there be a spring in Lehi until that day. In fact, the verse does not even state that there was a spring, simply that the water came from the hollow place. It is asserted that there was a spring from the ground but this is not what the text actually states. It is reading that understanding into the text. It refers to the place that was called Enhakkore that was in Lehi until that day not the spring. The place Enhakkore remained in Lehi until that day.
Interestingly, even the Greek Septuagint does not read Lehi (or spring) here.
Judges 15:19 And God broke open a hollow place in the jaw, and there came thence water, and he drank; and his spirit returned and he revived: therefore the name of the fountain was called ?The well of the invoker,’ which is in Lechi, until this day.
The Greek being σιαγών siagōn meaning jaw or cheek.
The latin reads that the LORD opened a tooth in the Jaw and water came out.
Judges 15:19 aperuit itaque Dominus molarem dentem in maxilla asini et egressae sunt ex eo aquae
THe Hebrew rendered hollowed place is הַמַּכְתֵּ֣שׁ ham-maḵ-têš which means mortar. Strongs actually says that this by analogy means tooth socket.
Strongs 4388 hollow place, mortar
From kathash; a mortar; by analogy, a socket (of a tooth) — hollow place, mortar.
see HEBREW kathash
The Greek reads τραῦμα Trauma which means a wound.
It therefore, would seem that the wound or tooth socket in the Jaw is where the water sprung from.
What we should notice is that Jaw and Lehi are actually two slightly different words and are recorded in strongs as two different words 3895 (Jaw) and 3896 (Lehi the place).
The word 3895 is used 21 times in the OT. Is ALWAYS translated as Jaw(bone) or cheek by the KJV translators and in context is ALWAYS refers to the face bones. This is also attested to by other translations. It certainly is no KVJ thing.
This is in contrast to 3896 which is used just 3 times in the OT all of which occur in Judges 15 (verses 9:14 and 19) each time the KJV translators translate this as the PLACE Lehi. Just as other translations do.
There is a clear distinction between the bone (cheek or Jaw) and the place.
The water sprang from the Jawbone that Samson had used and that PLACE was called Enhakkore. It is the PLACE named Enhakkore that remained in the place named Lehi not the spring itself.
I will add the other debate verses as I get around to them.
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