Debate follow up part 1

Debate follow up part 1

As a follow up to my debate with Anthony Rogers, I would like to make some observations that I did not at the time (because I am not a good debater 🙂 ) A better debater than me would have addressed them in the debate….

Firstly Anthony claimed that Psalm 34:7 refers to those that fear the angel of the LORD.

This is a complete misrepresentation of the text.

Psalm 34:7 The angel of the LORD encampeth round about them that fear him, and delivereth them.

The HIM in this verse is NOT referring to the Angel of the LORD but the LORD himself.

The angel encamps around those that fear the LORD. The LORD is the referent of the previous .

1) I will bless the LORD at all times: his praise shall continually be in my mouth.
2) My soul shall make her boast in the LORD: the humble shall hear thereof, and be glad.
3) O magnify the LORD with me, and let us exalt his name together.
4) I sought the LORD, and he heard me, and delivered me from all my fears.
5) They looked unto him, and were lightened: and their faces were not ashamed.
6) This poor man cried, and the LORD heard him, and saved him out of all his troubles.

The whole passage here is about YHWH. Verse 7 is simply a continuation of the referent of verses 1-6 who is YHWH.

We then have verse 8 where again the referent is YHWH

8) O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him.

Verse 9 even explicitly states to FEAR the LORD (the saints…Israelites) There is no want in those that FEAR him..(YHWH)

9)  fear the LORD, ye his saints: for there is no want to them that fear him.

Verse 10 again refers to YHWH

10) The young lions do lack, and suffer hunger: but they that seek the LORD shall not want any good thing.

Verse 11 says “I will teach you the FEAR of YHWH 

11) Come, ye children, hearken unto me: I will teach you the fear of the LORD.

The very clear referent of the FEAR in verse 7 is YHWH.

Psalm 110:5

Anthony claimed that the Lord (adoni) of verse 1 is called Adonay in verse 5. This again is simply incorrect. 

The Lord in verse 5 is YHWH. 

Psalm 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

So here the LORD (YHWH) speaks to Davids Lord (adoni). This is clearly YHWH talking to the Messiah. 

5The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.

YHWH has been the active agent throughout the psalm. 

The only reason I can think that anyone would assert that the Lord here in verse 5  is the Messiah would be based on the fact that it refers to the Lord on the right hand of shall strike through the kings in the day of his wrath.

We know that the Messiah sits at the right hand of YHWH. However, to conclude that the Lord here is the messiah  based on the fact that he is referred to as the Lord at thy right hand and the THY is YHWH is incorrect. 

Being on the right hand of YHWH or YHWH being on the right hand does not refer to a literal position. It simply means to be in closeness or in a position of authority. 

There are numerous passages where YHWH is referred to being in the position of on the right hand. 

Psalm 16:8 I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved.

Psalam 121:5 The LORD is thy keeper: the LORD is thy shade upon thy right hand.

Psalm 109:31 For he shall stand at the right hand of the poor, to save him from those that condemn his soul.

The day of his wrath is a referent to YHWH’s wrath. 

Psalm 21:9 Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the LORD shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them.

Job 20:28 The increase of his house shall depart, and his goods shall flow away in the day of his wrath. 29 This is the portion of a wicked man from God, and the heritage appointed unto him by God.

Isaiah 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

Isaiah 13:13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

The claim again does not hold up. 

Anthony also made the argument that if he said that when Abraham when up the mountain to sacrifice Isaac that it wasn’t really referring to Abraham but just Abrahams servant acting in his name and that I would not be able to argue against that based on my arbitrary application to the principle of Agency that I applied.

This is again incorrect. I DID give a case as to why the angel of the LORD would be seen as the representative of YHWH (Exodus 23:20-23) where this is explained. This is NOT the case for “Abrahams agent” if it was to be asserted that Abraham used one in the sacrifice of Abraham.  So it is not an arbitrary application it is based on the text. As there is no text that explains the “agent of Abraham” or at least one that can be cited as evidence, the argument could be rejected. If evidence was presented then I would argue against said evidence.

A final argument that I will deal with is a passage in Zechariah 3. It is claimed that the angel of the LORD forgives sins in heaven thus proving that he is YHWH.  

Zechariah 3: 1And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. 2And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire? 3Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel. 4And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee as with change of raiment.

Now, at first glance it may well do as it is asserted that it does. HOWEVER, let’s not be so hasty. Let us analyse the passage a little deeper. 

This is part of a vision that is being shown to Zechariah. (One of 8 visions of Zachariah in fact)

It is this fact that we need to remember when we interpret this passage. This is a VISION and is not real. It is simply a visual representation(perceived not actuality). 

This is simply a representation of the heavenly high court. 

So we have Joshua, the high priest standing in front of the angel of the LORD, now EVEN if this is in heaven we know this MUST is a vision as Joshua was a man, a man that was still alive at the time. He was not in heaven. This is simply symbolic and not reality. 

Satan is stood at the right hand of Joshua to accuse him. This is what Satan does, he is the accuser. 

We must also take into account WHEN this takes place. This is around the time of the end of the 70 year exile of the house of Judah into Babylon. The house of Judah are starting to return back to Israel. They are led back into Israel by Joshua the high priest. 

So Satan stands ready to accuse the high priest.  However, the LORD rebukes Satan of his accusation and tells him that he has chosen Jerusalem. The Hebrew rebuke here is Yig-ar which means to be pushed out. Satan and his accusation are pushed out by the LORD. Satan is found no more in the vision. 

Now we see that Joshua is clothed with filthy garments, dirty clothes. 

Zechariah 3: 3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel. 

It’s important to note that it is NOT Joshua who was filthy. It was NOT Joshua that was unclean. It was the garments. 

Now the LORD tells those who stood watching to take away the filthy garments and states that HE will clothe Joshua with a change of clothes. 

4And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.

In the VISION, The iniquity of Joshua was symbolically removed simply by the change of clothing.  This also demonstrates that the claim that ONLY the angel of the LORD Satan and Joshua were present……YHWH tells those stood watching. Clearly there were others in attendance yet were not specifically mentioned. 

So what does this mean? 

Joshua’s son had married outside of Israel. He had taken a wife from the gentiles. Satan was accusing Joshua before God that he was unclean and unworthy of being high priest. However, God simply stated that this was not JOSHUA that was unclean. Joshua himself was not guilty. The Hebrew translated as iniquity is avon …this is not sin or transgression. It means iniquity or guilt. This is not God removing his sin but his guilt…he was not guilty for the actions of his son. 

Joshua was told that if HE walked in the ways of God then HE would be worthy of his role as high priest as HE was clean. This literally has nothing to do with the angel of the LORD removing sins in heaven. 

Now notice that the LORD says set a mitre on his head….and the angel of the LORD stood by.

5And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the LORD stood by.

The angel of the LORD is not the one that states this….a clear distinction and also again shows that the angel of the LORD, Satan and Joshua are not the only three in attendance 

THEN the angel of the LORD protested unto Joshua and said THUS saith the LORD….the Hebrew translated as protested is uwd, which means to repeat, do again. The angel of the LORD REPEATED what YHWH had already stated….if you walk in my ways, if you keep my charge then Joshua would judge in the house of God and keep his court. The angel is simply reiterating to Joshua the commands of YHWH.

6And the angel of the LORD protested unto Joshua, saying, 7Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by.

This actually shows a distinction between YHWH and the angel of YHWH

We must also note that in the book of the prophet Isaiah we see that a Seraphim cleansed the iniquity and purged the sin of Isaiah.

Im sure that no trinitarian will be claiming that this seraphim is YHWH.

ISaiah 6: 5Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.

6Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar: 7And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.

YHWH spoke and the angel of the LORD simply reiterated what YHWH spoke.  

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